Science, true sciuence, does not verse the Bible. It is scientists who deny the existance of God that verse the Bible, because they don't believe it. They use their own faulty thinking to back up their belief, but they can't understand the way God thinks. Therefore, they are mistaken in what they believe. - jag

Sad and desperate, this devotion is. - Erik

Please explain, Erik. - Jennifer

With pleasure Jennifer. The verse in the devotion mentions the "circle" of the earth. It does not describe the earth as a ball or sphere, although there is a perfectly good Hebrew word for a 3-d sphere as opposed to the word used here which does in fact mean a flat circle.

It was commonly believed during this time that the earth WAS a flat circle or flat square, supported by pillars (or a foundation or a turtle or whatever) as evidenced by the following verses: Isaiah 11:12 "...the FOUR CORNERS of the earth."
Job 9:6
"He shakes the EARTH from its place and makes its PILLARS tremble."

Psalm 104:5
"He set the earth on its FOUNDATIONS; it can never be moved".

And many many more I don't have time to list. These are just a few of the verses relevant to the passage BW uses in the devotion. I can't even begin to address the silliness of a statement like "not only has science never proven any part of the Bible wrong, it actually continually proves it to be right." I really thought BW was a little better than that.





- Erik

Is it possible that God is so amazing that he is able to write a book that is meant for all ages to understand?

The word circle means round earth to us, but then it would mean something they would understand. It would have to be understandable for people of those times too. God knew that we would know the earth is round, so I think he expects us to understand that sometimes things are worded for everyone to understand.

To me that in itself is amazing, that it is such a timeless book, while our world is so different from then, we can all understand if we choose to do so.
- Jennifer

Erik, you must be the "local troublemaker" from what I've seen of your occassional comments. Since you seem to be very conversant with scripture, I assume that you had some motivation to read it, but you don't "have ears to hear". These are the "ears" of the heart. They can only be opened by the Holy Spirit. I hope that he will chose to do this with you at some point.
Grant
PS: Satan could quote scripture too. Don't be too smug. I'll pray for you. - Grant

There is one thing that is undeniable. With as much as we know today about our universe, biology, quantum mechanics, and other disciplines, science has been unable to answer the important questions of the origin or our universe, life, consciousness, and moral values. Theists are often accused of placing "God in the gaps" where there isn't "currently" an answer, but it can be just as equally charged that atheists put unproven scientific theories in the gaps.

The more science learns, the more inexplicable our existence is. It will be interesting to see if anything new comes out of the Hadron Collider that is coming on-line in the next day. I predict even more surprises that cannot be explained naturally. In the end, it all comes down to faith on both sides. For me, science and religeon work together. I see from the evidence a beginning of time, space, energy and matter by our God that created us and sustains us as described in scripture. "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." - RickY

Erik, Let's try something. Go to the website of John Piper, desiringgod.org. Go to sermons by date and listen to his message on December 11, 1994. Then, let me know what you make of it. - Grant

Ok- here are the rebuttals to my argument. Jennifer says the Bible can mean different things to different people, therefore Bible is right about science. Grant says Erik is smug and a troublemaker, therefore the Bible is right about science. RickY says science hasn't explained some things, therefore the Bible is right about science.

Grant: I'll listen to that sermon and report back if you'll watch the following video and get back to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqvrZ8MicmM - Erik

I really appreciated Jennifer's comment. I interpret it to be like there are layers of understanding. As science evolves with more known facts, the Bible continues to be true given the additional scienfific information. The Bible is eternally true and there may be instances when the gathering of scientific facts has not caught up to what the Bible has to say. Trust in the words of God for they are timeless and for all ages as Jennifer noted. - Janice

Erik, I watched your video. I think they are grasping into air. They act like the new testament was written centuries after Christ's death, when it was only 40 years. What makes that any different than someone today writting about the Carter adminstration? Perhaps I am making this too simple. I only know what I know that I know that I know because like Grant said I choose to have " ears to hear".

- Jennifer

Hello Erik, Just letting you know I prayed for you again last night:-)))Take care & God bless - christ follower

Erik: From that video I now understand previous comments you made questioning whether Jesus was even a historical figure. I think you need to find better material. First, we've had the discussion before in this forum about dating of the gospels, and there is no valid basis for putting Mark after 70 AD. It's much earlier, Paul's letters earlier than that, and the creeds Paul references in his letters maybe five years after the resurrection. Also, why would anyone think Paul would mention all of the things that Jesus had done? He was not writing a gospel, he was writing letters to believers in churches that had already heard the gospel ("for what I received I passed on to you").

Finally, the argument about Pilate actually helps prove the validity of the story, and the lack of historical understanding of the sources in the video. If the gospel writers were going to make up a story, they would not put in sympathetic details about Pilate where he would care what the Jews wanted unless that is the way it was. More importantly, it's not only conceivable that Pilate would act that way, it fits perfectly with what we know about him and that time in history, lending even more credence to the account. Pilate was appointed by Aelius Sejanus, who was left in charge of Rome by Tiberius Caesar around 26 AD. Sanjeus was an anti-semite, and Pilate happily followed those policies as he governed. But, Sanjeus was later found to be disloyal to Tiberius, and dragged out of the senate and killed on October 18, 31 AD. Tiberius countermanded Sejanus orders and anti-Semitic policies, and ordered those who were found to in complicity to be executed. This explains perfectly why Pilate would not want to have any trouble in Judea after that event, and why he would bend over backwards to accommodate the Jew's wishes. - RickY

Glad you found the video stimulating, RickY. Here is part 2 if you are interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq0q4k_o11U - Erik

Erik, I watched your video. Since I assume that you take what is presented seriously, I also assume that you don't just question the diety of Jesus, but His very existence. Do you also deny the existence of God? If this is the case, then we are poles apart and this site is probably not a productive place to try and debate the issue. Serious "apologetic" works by thinkers greater than I have been written over the past 1600 years. If you are serious about examining the case for Christ, then it's there for you. I myself have read, or listened to, many "serious" denials of God over the past decade. In the end though, it will come down to Faith, and that by Grace alone. I don't think you can argue or debate someone into believing or being saved. Like I said, I'll pray for you. - Grant

Eric, even Jesus said before He went up into Heaven to spread the good news (God's word) into all the corners of the earth. When God uses the word corners He's just meaning all parts of the earth.

I'm not sure if you know this or not but science has proven that evolution never happened. It was once thought to believe that we evoluded from monkeys. However, evolution has proven that monkeys are monkeys and people are people. Only that there are many species of both monkey and people are no longer around any more. - Kimberly

Rick,
In studying the scriptures I believe that all of the New Testement was written before 70A.D. The Holy City was destroyed in 69 A.D. and the scriptures said that it would happen. Christ even said that not one stone would be left unturned and this was done in 69A.D. I do not believe the Anti Christ has come yet and did what was told of him, but I do believe he can be in the world today, I feel he will show himself soon. I enjoyed your comments and I wondered where did you find the imformation on Serjanus? I would like to read up on that. Stay in the book, you are doing great as well as some of the others. God bless everyone. And hello Eric. - Jerry

Kimberly- that's the point. They didn't know any better during Jesus' time than they did in OT times. As I recall the devil takes Jesus up to a high place where he can "see all the kingdoms of the earth." Well, I suppose you could argue that the earth was flat back then...



Hello Jerry. Was wondering where you were. - Erik

Hey, Jerry. Tacitus, a Roman historian wrote about Sejanus, but you can just Google his name for more. It's a fascinating connection to Pilate and explains his motives and treatment of Jesus. No wonder he was so concerned when the Jewish leaders told him he was no friend of Caesar if he were to let Jesus go. Another example of God working within the events of history to bring about His purposes. - RickY

So a friend of Caesar would let an insurrectionist go? A man who had killed Roman soldiers? Doubt it.
- Erik

Hi! This is the first time I've actually read any of the comments or posted, so I'm just gonna comment on today's posts.
I'm a Christian (let's get that out there right away), but I have to agree with Erik on the point that the verse in Isaiah does not say that the earth is a sphere, merely a circle, a 2-dimensional object. That was the thought that struck me even before I read the comments. So from my point of view, this devo isn't really that well-founded. But that doesn't shake my faith one bit, and neither does that video you cited, Erik. It wasn't any better founded than the devo. For instance, the verse in Hebrews 8 is clearly written in the present conditional tense, not the past. "If He WERE on earth, he would not be a priest . . ." It is saying that if Jesus had been on earth AT THE TIME THAT VERSE WAS WRITTEN He would not have been a priest. It was not referring to His life in the past.
Second, if there really was a period between Jesus's life and the writing of the gospels when people just "forgot about him", what was Saul persecuting the Christians for? Clearly they were being vocal about what had happened and were spreading their knowledge, by word of mouth. People did not "forget" about Jesus. Boy, did they remember, and it was getting them killed.
Third, Herod (the son of Herod the king who tried to kill Jesus as a baby) was king at the time that Jesus was crucified, and Jesus was brought before him. Herod was involved in Jesus's death, along with Pilate and Annas and Caiaphis the priests. So how does that prove that the life of Jesus is uncertain?
I don't have time to get into all the differences between what was considered "right" in the old Testement and what was included in it. Slavery, Abuse of women, etc. I'd love it if someone else would start a thread on that!
Oh, and there is significant evidence that Jesus was not born on December 25, nor even in the year 0.
Just addressing some of the issues in those videos of yours, Erik. I do think it is important for you to study Christianity and other faiths, not just blindly believe everything,.
- Maggie

Sorry I didn't get to finish my last comment cuz I had to log off my computer. What I mean is, you are perfectly right to study and investigate any faith before you decide to subscribe to it, not just believe everything you hear about it, which some Christians are, admittedly, prone to doing. I don't think there's anything wrong with asking pointed questions about a faith; you have a right to answers. Just make sure your evidence is as well-founded as you say ours should be. :) - Maggie

Erik, you missed my piont completely. Whenever the "corners of the earth" is mentioned in the Bible it is just stating all parts of the earth. It says nothing about the earth being flat. Read the following books that prove that the Bible does not lie. - Kimberly

Thanks for your engaging and thoughtful comments, Maggie. I agree that there are points made in the video that are debatable or perhaps over-simplified but I think Fleming (the director) was trying to sum up some of the major points and make an over-arching case without a lot of qualifications and caveats. Again, honest minds might disagree with some of the stuff.

One small point- on the December 25th thing I don't think he is at all claiming that's Biblical, only that it is part of the Jesus Myth as we know it today.
- Erik

December 25th is simply the day Christ's birth is celebrated. This is pretty well common knowledge to most christians that have been christians for very long anyway.People that are just interested in what they get for Christmas really don't know or care anyway. - christ follower

Think about this for December 25th, where Christ was born they don't get the weather that other parts of the world get. Now I'm not saying that is when Christ was born, but just giving you something else to think about. 'Chirst follower' a good point as well, it is just a day put aside for Christians to celebrate the brith of Jesus. Documents back then weren't kept for the poor, even if they were they weren't kept like they are today. Remember, Jesus was not born to a rich family, but He was born to Joseph and Mary, and they were poor. So the accurate of the birth of Christ may not be for sure. December 25th is just a time for Christians to remember the birth of the Christ Child with nothing else distrating them. - Kimberly

"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls to the swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

Jesus said these 2000 years ago and Lo and behold if Eric doesn't sound off to give us a modern day application. - Keith R.

Keith, what do you mean by that? - Maggie

Maggie, it is from Matt. 7:6. Eric is not an unbeliever searching for truth. He is an unbeliever who is against the word of God. As you can read, Eric tramples on everything we say and tries to tear us into pieces. Jesus was saying don't waste your breath once you realize the situation. You can pray for him, that he will have a 'road to Damascus' event but sharing the gospel with him is like trying to witness to a dog. If you could see him he would probably have his head cocked sideways.

If you are a newcomer to this forum then he may seem like a good challenge or even stimulating for bible study. After a while he is like the possessed girl that followed Paul around in Acts 16:16-18. He is annoying and needs an exorcism. - Keith R.

Let's leave Erik be and any others like him. Those who want to pray for him, I encourage you to do just that. But please don't waste time arguing with likes of Erik. One day he will find out.
Lets keep reading GOD's Word and let more and more of His Word sink in to our spirit with the help of the true Author, the HOLY SPIRIT. - cee