It always seems to me that the people who say they are "spiritual but not religious" do nothing. They don't pray, they don't worship, they don't read the Bible or anything else. I am just curious about what being "spiritual" means to them and what it involves...doing nothing, but maybe it sounds good?? - Melanie

Amen to this devotional! The current trend towards "spirituality" really reinforces the Bible's teaching that God has written on the hearts of man that there is a God and more to life than just the physical world. These substitute beliefs allow people to dabble in the spiritual relm without giving up their autonomy. How happy they'd be if they just submitted to their creator! - Austin

There are lots of stories with lessons about doing worship in your own way. The first is Cain doing it his own way which led him into trouble. - Hal

I think Bryant's right (no pun intended). We all have an inner perception that there is something bigger than we are, and a reason why we are here -- a God-sized hole that only God can fill. That causes some to gravitate to things like Scientology, the eastern religions, or other things spiritual. For others it's the religious smorgasbord -- a little of this and a little of that. All roads lead to God, and all religions have some element of truth. But, Jesus said he is the Truth, the road to God is narrow, and most people are going the wrong way. That is a statement that offends in our in our politically correct and morally relativistic society.

There is no doubt that world religions cannot be harmonized. They have distinct and contrary differences. Either Jesus was the Messiah and equal to the Father, or not. Either God is a personal being, or not. Thankfully, God has given us general revelation in nature and our inner being so we know He exists, and special revelation through the prophets, His son and His word so that we can know more about Him. - Rick Y

People have said to me too that they are spiritual but not religious, what does that mean. We were at a funeral a few years ago and the father of the son that died said this to the people attending. Was he trying to make us all feel welcome, probably. Most attending were not believers either, but he knew the ones who were. Next time I run into this comment I will ask. It is so sad , so many people will not make it to Heaven because they don't want to give up them "selves", but want it their way all the time. Don't want to have accountability to anyone, especially Jesus. - julie

For once I sorta agree with you people. These "I'm spiritual but not religious" people are just a bunch of bozos who don't want to side with Christianity, Judaism, etc., but they are not strong enough to come out and admit they are atheists at heart. They don't want to be lumped in with conservative religious america that seems inflexible to them, but they don't want to think there is "nothing at all" (but in my mind, everything). So they cop out and say they are 'spiritual'.

But it means nothing. I'm not sure what the "Church of the Spiritual" believe in. - Olberman

The confusion comes from the language came we are playing with the words "spiritual" vs the word "religious." It's true that people are self-identifying as "spiritual" rather than a member of any religion. This is a reflection of how the literalist religions have failed, yet people still long for Something More.

And Rick Y- the world's religions are easily harmonizable. Read Joseph Campbell's "The Masks of God" series. Or for a good overview I recommend "Thou Art That" or "The Hero With a Thousand Faces."

Happy reading. - Erik

Agree Erik, we should package up the world's religions as just one, keeping all the good stuff and discarding all the bad.

I've never understood the "wanting more" thing. There are enough things in life to hold onto - art, music, science, literature (a million books to read, all more riviting than the Bible), economics, politics, languages, to learn, places to travel to (like Japan, so we get an EDUCATED opinion about it), and a vast world to try to make sense out of. It's certainly anything far from boring. To be stuck in hocus-pocus from 2,000 years ago seems contrary to all that. - Olberman

Rick Y - But, Mohammad said he is the Truth, the road to God is narrow, and most people are going the wrong way. Who's right? There are a billion Muslims in the world just as utterly convinced of this as you are about Jesus.

This statement doesn't "offend" anyone in our in our politically correct and morally relativistic society. A lot of people just consider such things a gross abberation of reality.

"Thankfully, God has given us general revelation in nature and our inner being so we know He exists"

What does this mean? - Olberman

Olberman, it means just what it says and you know that. But if you don't believe what the Bible has to say (both from fact and through faith) is true, and you obviously don't, that statement won't make sense to you. I know exactly what you're doing here on this site - just trying to be antagonistic and creating havoc, all for the sake of the debate. If everything here is so unbelievable and you're so disgusted with it all, why - please tell me - why do you continue to add your comments? What's the point? If you don't agree, that's totally fine. That's your choice. But why continue to try to mess around with the hearts and minds of those who do have the faith to believe? Are you the self-appointed giver of your own version of the truth? Fine. Create your own site and slam what we believe to your heart's content. - ME

Actually, I like hearing all the perspectives. It challenges me, as a believer. Olberman makes a good point... there is a lot of stuff to do on Earth to keep you entertained, but after you look passed all that, whats the purpose? I believe Satan couldn't be happier to see people keeping themselves occupied with all the things in this world. It keeps them away from the truth. As for the muhammad quote about he is the only way to heaven (I'd like to know the book, ch, and verse). All i konw is there are good books out there that debunk the Koran, one that comes to mind "Understanding the Koran by Mateen Elass" and yes, there are books that attempt to debunk christianity. But i have yet to run into one that makes sense. - clinT

Olberman, the number of people that believe something has no bearing on whether it is true or false. It is either true or false based on its own merits. Most everyone believed the world was flat at one point. It is the evidence behind the claim that counts. Mohammed made his claims over six hundred years after Jesus, and there is no evidence that his claims are true. I know your opinion is there is no evidence about who Jesus was and what he said is true, and I can't convince you of that, but there is far more evidence for Christianity being true than other religions.

As far as general revelation, look around you. In your world view, you are nothing more than a collection of elements that were thrown out of an explosion in the distant past and through a series of blind, random events became you. I see a beginning of time and space that has an explanation. I see fine-tuning in the universe, computer-code-like information stored in DNA, and irreducibly complex biological components that point to an intelligent creator. I see objective, moral values would not be the product of evolution. I see intelligent, conscious beings capable of doing great good and great evil. The Judeo-Christian world view has great explanatory power and explanatory scope for who we are and why we are here.

Also, Erik, I don't need to read a book to understand a logical fallacy. Regardless of what you believe, if you look at competing world views, all can be false, but only one can be true if they have fundamental differences at their core. There is a perceived exception for some individuals who follow a post-modern world view, but that is a self-refuting philosophy. Truth is still truth, and if 2 + 2 = 4, then 2 + 2 cannot equal 5. Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified, he is not the son of God, and you cannot have a personal relationship with your creator. You cannot reconcile that with Christian beliefs. - Rick Y

I agree with Rick Y. Very well put.
One cannot reconcile any of the world's religions. People often criticize Christianity for being exclusive, when in fact all religions claim they are the one and only way to God. You just have to decide which one is correct, or reject them all as false. None of them leave you open to pick and choose certain parts to believe. - Austin

Rick- I recommended the books because you are obviously an intelligent guy and I think you would get a lot out of them. Maybe not change your mind but I'd at least like to hear what you think.
The point I'm making is that none of the religions are literally true, but they are true on a METAPHORICAL level. They are true in the way Hamlet is "true." - Erik

Erik, to quote Ravi Zacharias, "Some religions tell you to love your neighbor, others tell you to eat your neighbor. Which is it?"
Which one is metaphorically correct?Also, you bring up the book of Job pretty often. Almost all Jews and some Christians believe that this was an allegorical tale, that none of the events described in the book actually happened. I don't know who is correct, but the story is certainly odd. - Austin

In defense of spirituality, I think it is impossible to pass judgement on another's heart. I know many deeply rooted spiritual people who give much of their time and resources to those less fortunate, live the ten commandments and the golden rule versus preach it. Many of these deeply rooted spiritual folks would never feel a need to call others names (like Bozo) because their beliefs may differ. Dissecting and passing judgement on other's motives, and the heart behind those motives seems counterproductive. Isn't there enough pain and evil in the world? And wouldn't our time be better spent putting our differences of faith aside and refocusing our energy on helping those who have never experienced the healing power of hope and faith or had the honor of being welcomed into a church unconditionly?

Peace to you all. - Margie

Austin- I wasn't speaking of any individual statement within a religious context but the religion itself. Christianity is not reducible to "love your neighbor." I don't any religion is reducible to "eat your neighbor." I'm speaking of the entire system of beliefs within which these statements occur. Jesus himself is quite clear on many occasions that he is speaking metaphorically. I think we have too many people today who are like poor Nicodemus, scratching his head over how to be "born again." It's not about obstetrics it's about the metaphor.
Are your saying that Job is a metaphor? Then I agree with you on that. I just extend it to the other books of the bible as well. - Erik

I am a new reader to this devotional site but certainly not to the truth of God's word. It SIMPLY is God's word - it is what it is, God has, does and will accomplish every thing written, down to the tiniest detail! When all is said and done, at the name of JESUS every knee show bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.(Phil 2:6-11) There is only one true and living God and that one is Jesus. Even allah, buddah, muhammad and the likes of such false gods and all their followers, the atheists who believe nothing as well as the followers of CHRIST JESUS will bow the knee and confess with their tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord.

God's word is truth and I "AMEN" the response by "ME". To the comment on the book of Job being allegoric and possibility that the events didn't really happen...AGAIN, the BIBLE is either TRUE or NOT TRUE...one can't pick and choose the parts to believe and parts not to believe. If one does, you will certainly be confused on many things. Granted, there are things in the Bible that are hard to imagine, unexplainable, uncomprehendable and well, Jehovah God is a GOD so big, we humans don't even have the vocabulary to describe His greatness, His unlimited power, His sovereignty...some things we just have to "accept and believe on faith". Is.55:9 As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my (GOD's) ways higher than your ways and my (GOD's) thoughts than your thoughts.

Take Abraham and Sarah. God said he would give him a son and make him a father of many nations. Abraham and Sarah were already past child bearing age and,by human means at that time, that was impossible. BUT, Abraham believed God was able to do exactly as He had promised and, in God's perfect timing, He caused Sarah to conceive and bear a child and they became proud parents at 90(she) and 100(he). Abraham's faith in that instance was credited to him as righteousness. Just as when God told Abraham to go and take his only son Isaac and sacrifice him to the Lord on the mount He would tell him. They arrived at the mountain, Abraham took the fire and the wood for the burnt offering, but he didn't have an animal for the sacrifice. When Isaac questioned his father where was the lamb for the burnt offering, Abraham responded "God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering". When they reached the place, Abraham built the alter,arranged the wood on it, bound his son Isaac and laid him on the alter. As he reached to slay his son with a knive, an angel of the Lord called out to Abraham and said "Do not lay a hand on the boy" "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from him your son, your only son." Then Abraham looked and there in the thicket was a ram (God provided the sacrifice) and he took it and sacrificed it. (Gen 22:1-19) We read in Heb chap 11 (the faith chapter) the many people of the bible who, BY FAITH, chose to believe God, simply took Him at His word. You can read for yourself the many blessings they received for just believing and trusting God, whether it made sense in the natural or not!

I guess I am one of a very simple mind...I'd rather believe God for whatever and receive it than to not believe and receive nothing!

If you've not done so, you should do the bible study by Beth Moore entitled "Believing God" - it is very eye-opening if you happen to have your eyes shut! There is one thing I know, God is who is says He is, God can do what He says He can do, I am who Christ says I am, I can do what God says I can do, God's word is alive and active in me...I'm Believing God!

How would one explain the 3 Hebrew boys who were thrown into the fire and emerged unburned, clothes in tact,not even so much as the smell of smoke on them...only thing missing were the ropes that were used to bind their hands. There is no explaining that except a miracle by a GOD so much bigger than us or anything on this earth (Dan. chap 3).

Also, a study of "Daniel" by Beth Moore is another awesome study - she explains things in such detail, backed up by the word. It also contains a lot of prophecy - things that have come to past just as was prophesied and some things prophesied which have yet to come to pass (the last days and they are quickly being fulfilled) but surely will as all the other prophecies she explains in her study.

It is truly the last days in which we live. We all have a choice to believe or not to believe...God never has and never will force/make anyone believe Him, but His Spirit draws us...it is our choice (free will) to follow and respond to that drawing.

Satan's days are numbered and he is on the rampage to steal, kill and destroy anyone he can by any method he can, but Jesus came that we might have life and have it in abundance, to the fullest. (John 10:10)

Deception is one of satan's biggest guns in his arsenal. Jesus defeated satan in the Garden by tell him "It is written..." Matt 4:1-10.

I urge everyone, as I have, to get into the Word for yourself, don't rely on what others say or believe. I'm not saying not to talk w/others and get opinions, but seek the answers/truths for yourself. You've got to know the word for yourself or else you cannot defeat satan when he attacks with his lies (and he is the father of lies so he can be pretty convincing). You've got to know the truth to defeat the lies.

In today's devotion, the very words of Jesus "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE;, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT THROUGH ME" are our answer. The Bible tells us the way and it always points to Jesus (read it and pray for understanding, search the scriptures and studies to expound and explain). The WORD is the truth (you believe it in whole or you don't...but it is still the truth). Jesus is the life (whose life and story is told in the bible - and if we believe on Him, we will have eternal life in heaven - what a life!!!). Read the Bible for yourself and ask the Holy Spirit to open your mind and spiritual eyes to understand. You will not be disappointed! Jehovah God is faithful and true.

In my humble opinion it is easier to believe and do my best to walk in the truths of God's word and receive His blessings than dispute it all.

Blessings and understanding to all, Deanna - Deanna

Well she's right about one thing- it IS easier to believe. Only some of us prefer the right way to the easy way. - Erik

Welcome to the devotion forum Deanna. Well said!! I personally don't really believe that there is such a thing as real atheists. Like the saying goes- There are no atheists in foxholes. Besides that who do they scream to right before a fatal accident? Deep down everyone knows, but they just want excuses to make themselves god of their life. - Becky

Erik, It takes a lot of hard work and sweat to build faith. It is work for a lifetime. It takes time in devotion to God in Bible reading and prayer. It takes putting things out on a limb and trusting Him to come through. Your way is the easy way. Risk nothing, gain nothing. God always blesses the faithful even though it might not be until heaven. I pray one day You will understand. - Janice

I am a real atheist. A 100% atheist, as are a lot of people in the Western world. My sister is an atheist, as is my wife. I've met many people in my life convinced that god (or any god) doesn't exist. It's all a made up story from long ago.

But if you want to think it's real - fine. I have no issue with this. If you want to think Santa Claus is real, I disagree with you, but ok.

But don't say that real atheists don't exist - they do. Lots of them.

I agree with Erik - Only some of us prefer the right way to the easy way. Some of us prefer to be bounded in reality. - Olberman

Olberman, You say you have no issue with those of us who believe yet so many of your comments are disrespectful and argumentative that it makes your comment seem untrue. Everything seems to be an issue for you. Proverbs has a word for you and Erik in chapter 16:v.25, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death." I pray you and Erik will find God's way, the right way, before the end so we can one day rejoice to see you happy in heaven. - Janice

Janice, I apologize, but my point was I recognize that "real Christians" exist. All I was asking for in return was acknowledgement that "real atheists" exist. We don't agree on this topic, but we should acknowledge the other exists. Just as "real Hindus" exist and "real agnostics" exist. "Real scientologists" exist. I think we are all following now. - Olberman

I think that's why some of us doubt that you don't really know there is a God deep down because of your anger toward us. Why would our beliefs upset you so much if you really knew that we were wrong and for that fact why would you bother to talk to us. - Christ Follower

Thank you, Olberman, for your apology which I assume is in regards to disrespecting the beliefs of Christians. I can see you feel disrespected when atheism is not regarded as a true religion. Yes, I do believe you are a true atheist but as Becky points out perhaps your atheism has not truly been put to the test. What can I say? From my perspective, God only knows. People only think they know how they would act in a crisis situation. Your faith amd belief in there not being a God will surely at some point in your life be tested. Time, experience and circumstances may lead you to other conclusions as you have more years of life accumulated. You seem very interested in increasing your knowledge and there is so much wisdom presented in the Bible that I do not understand from that perspective why you are so adamant in rejecting it. You seem like you want to identify with Erik yet this is a major difference between you two. He seems to enjoy Bible reading. I really think you would get something from it and if you want to continue to have discussions on this site then you would be better prepared to state a logical opinion. May the God that you don't believe in bless you in a mighty way. - Janice

There is one thing for sure we will all find out one day which side is right. If the belivers are right then the unbelivers will be weeping and wailing and gnashing their teeth. If the unbelivers are right (which I know will not happen), then it wont matter anyways because we would cease to exist. Myself I will stick with my Saviour and I will continue to pray for Erik, Jonathon Chistopher Olberman and the other unbelivers. I know you don't want us to pray for you but we will do that any ways. - Jerry

Someday we will all know the truth. As you have read, I am a faithful believer of Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour. But the day is coming and it will be too late, you have to decide now. - julie

The argument that one of us is right and the other is wrong doesn't hold water. How about Hinduism is the only way? They we are all in deep trouble. Atheists & Christians alike. Maybe it was Zeus and Apollo all along... - Olberman

Jerry, I'm not at ALL worried about the "gnashing of teeth". The fact that a smart, well-educated, high-IQ guy like myself isn't in the least bit worried, should make some suggestion to you, how inadequate I believe the arguments for God, or any 'god', are. - Olberman

JCO-having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; Eph 4:18

You definitely have a high IQ (ignorance quotient). You said that there are many atheist in the western world, including your sister, your wife and yourself. In this statement you are confirming the word of God:
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it." Mat 7:13 - Keith R.

Yes, Erik posted a link the other day giving countries in the Western world and % atheists in each country. It's quite high, don't you think? Secularism is only going to grow and grow. A thousand years from now, people will look at Christianity and Islam as we now look upon Mayan religions and Greek gods.

How come you people can never come back with rational arguments, just scripture quotes? I'm not interested in what a 2,000 year old book has to say. - Olberman

Well, Olberman, that 2000 year old book you so casually toss aside as fiction is the foundation of everything we believe as Christians. So, once again I ask, why are you here? - ME

You never answered my question from before-the 25th comment down. One other question-are you absolutley sure that(of course I'am not wishing this) if a loved one, like your child was in a terrible accident that you would not pray to God for a miracle or would refuse to pray with someone willing to pray for your child to God? Just wondering. Please answer both questions. - Christ Follower

Sorry CF for not answering your question, but a lot of my posts get delted (hehe).

What was the initial question? I'll deal with #2.

2. Am I absolutely sure that if a loved one, like my child was in a terrible accident that I would not pray to God for a miracle or would I refuse to pray with someone willing to pray for your child to God?

Well, let's first talk about the "refusal" part. My wife's family are Roman Catholics (Italian) so they do things like say Grace, etc. a lot. I do follow along out of respect for them (espeically in their house), however I'm just doing it to please them of course. I'm just doing it out of respect. If I attend at Jewish ceremony, and I'm asked to wear something else - likewise.

So I'm not against doing something I don't believe in out of respect. If someone wants my "prayers" for they think it'll make them feel better, I'll pray with them (although these kinds of scenarios don't happen a lot).

In terms of my child, or another family member, I actually DO think there is SOMETHING out there in Outer Space, or a zillion things in the universe we humans do not understand. I have, at times, found myself thinking of something out there...something that will get me through a hard time, but by no means do I think that something we insignificant humans here on Earth invented. Nor do I think it's something intangible, unscientific, or irrational. Whatever it is (or these things are), I would think they would obey the laws of the universe as we know them, or understand them.

I may try to reach out to something I don't know, and strongly "wish" for him to get better, but pray to a Christian God? Or Allah? Or Buddha? No.

I think I'm going to stop now. My comments are "biting" and I'm really not trying to upset people. As I've said, I believe in Freedom of Religion (where it's innocuous), and the State should never tell us how to think. But my friends, that includes atheism as well.

JCO - Olberman

Appreciate your honest answer. It sort of cleared some things up in my mind for me. God bless (and I don't mean that to annoy) We care and we will pray for you for all aspects of your life. - Christ Follower

Tsk, tsk!!! We aren't deleting any of your comments, Jonathan. :-) - RFTH Staff

Olberman, You must be a little worried or else you wouldn't have written back like you did. I noticed you like to brag on your education and your IQ, well I for one am not any more impressed about your education than you are about mine. You do however seem wraped up in yourself and seem to be very proud of that fact. Well I have allways herd that when a person is wrapped up in themselves they make a very small package. You don't want to read anything from a 2,000 year old book, then you need to understand the fact that this forum is built around that book. Since you don't belive it then don't worry about it, but since we do believe we also believe that this same book will be the one used when the unbelivers will stand before this God (that you do not believe in), and will hear the judgements (that you don't believe in),being given out to the angels (that you don't believe in)saying to bind them hand and feet and cast them into outer darkness where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth(that you don't believe in). But since you have said that an intelligent person such as yourself doesn't believe anything in this 2,000 year old book don't pay any attention to a dumb old ignorant christian like me. What you need to do is just keep on thinking that you are right and live life to the fullest and don't even think about anything said on this site. And by the way what ever you think or believe about our belief will not change the way that a true Christian lives their life. Gods speed to all. - Jerry

Very true Jerry and unfortunately any atheist or agnostics that have visited our forum will be without excuse when they stand before God on judgement day because they won't be able to say that they didn't know. - Christ Follower

I fear for you all when you are all called before Buddha on judgement day. How come you aren't all worried about the fact that you will all be called before Allah? I think he means business.

I live a good life. While argumentative, I am good to my fellow man and mean well. I'm probably just as, or more compasionate, than a lot of Christians. And if you people are right (and I'm certain you are not - sorry that was said to me), then it's just not atheists who are doomed, but Muslims, Bahai's, Buddhists, Scientologists, Hindus, Jews, and worshipers of the Great Jube Jube up the moutain. Pretty much everyone who is not a Christian is doomed in your mind. That's a pretty small way to look at the world. - Olberman

Speaking of the Jews :-) We just had a woman from the Light of Messiah ministries come speak to our bible study group and she was extremely excited that their ministry had seen more Jews come to faith in Christ over the last 5 years than in the last 20 combined. She's about to go to Israel with another group- I believe it was Jews for Jesus. Anyway it's just as Revelations predicted about his people the Israelites coming back to Him. Yohoo! Their website for anyone interested is www.lightofmessiah.org - Becky

Eph. 8 "For it is by grace you have bee saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is a gift of God-not by works, so that no man can boast." In other words you can't work your way into heaven. Where would the cut off point be? - Christ Follower

Okay that's been saved not bee saved-sorry. - Christ Follower

Olberman - yes, atheists exist, but it seems not for long. Your numbers are dwindling fast. It looks like you guys don't reproduce as fast as us foolish religious folk (over 90% of the world's pop). Kinda like natural selection is saying - get out of the gene pool. - Austin

Okay, God is a loving God that as scripture says that "while we were yet sinners that God sent His only begotten Son so that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." So God does not wish for anyone not to be saved it is a gift from God, but like any gift it has to be accepted. - Becky

Anyone not accepting Christ is putting off the inevitable-"As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God" So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Rom 14 11-12 - Christ Follower

You ask how we know that we are right and this is how- we know because we know Christ and we know the difference He has made in our lives and other people's lives. I mentioned the other night and it was very late so I'am going to repeat it- That I had a good friend when I was in school that happened to be an atheist. We always laughed that neither of us understood why we became friends except for the fact that we were thrown together in every class somehow. She was very moody and angry a lot of the time and I knew to stay out of her way in those times. She eventually did accept Christ and was voted at our class reunion as most changed of anyone since our graduation. The thing was it wasn't even just her personality and way of living, even her looks drastically changed. Bless her heart I hope she's not reading this, but she was a tomboy and just not very attractive, but after she accepted Christ she became beautiful inside and outside. It was so obvious to anyone that has known her by even just looking at her countenance that she just simply was no longer the same person. Just like Saul in the bible, she could have changed her name as he did when he became Paul. - Becky

Austin, everything I've ever read suggests that secularism and atheism are on the rise. Why do you think "The God Delusion" and books like that are best sellers? EVERY study I've seen in the past 10 years would suggest we are moving towards a more secular society. - Olberman

And those studies I suppose come from atheist websites again. - Christ Follower

Considering the wide gate and the narrow gate we should not be too surprised if the numbers are increasing for those choosing the wide gate. I'd rather follow Jesus to the narrow gate than follow the crowd. Among other things, the Bible is a great road map. It tells us the Way to go. Some people choose to go their own way and reject the instructions in the Bible. Seems to me I remember Robert Frost wrote a poem about this very thing, The Road Not Taken, and something about how it made all the difference. God loves His children and He shows them the Way if only they will pay attention and stay straight on His path. - Janice

Here is just one.

http://www.car-forums.com/talk/showthread.php?t=20774

A study done by the Graduate Center of the City University of New York found that the percentage of the population that describes itself as "nonreligious" more than doubled from 1990 to 2001, from 14.3 million to 29.4 million people. The only other group to show growth was Muslims.


This summarizes my thoughts well:

But what, exactly, do atheists believe in, if not in God?

In a nutshell, atheists believe in reason alone, in those things that can be arrived at through intellect and the scientific method. Concrete evidence for God, they argue, simply doesn't exist. They don't cotton to leaps of faith or anything that involves a supernatural being reaching into human lives. They believe you can live a happy, respectable life based on human ethics that were derived not from God handing down a tablet but from a code of rules that emerged naturally through an evolutionary process in which humans learned how to live together successfully. - Olberman

You skipped the part that said the overwhelming majority of US citizens profess a religious faith.Frankly we admit anyway that there are fewer people that truly know Christ as Janice mentioned the wide gate and narrow gate scripture. However I often very much doubt the truth of all your facts etc. that you so freely throw out. Anyone can open a website and quote any figures they wish and make up any study they wish. Nothing is stopping them and I've noticed a lot of your websites are atheist agenda based and just like you say that you don't blindly believe just anything, I certainly don't blindly believe a website that has such an obvious agenda as to as far as I'am concerned support Satan's work in this world. - Christ Follower

Yes, where is your "proof" it's all true. - Becky

Olberman, You obviously don't have much of a life if you don't have anything else to do other than come on a Christian web-site and try to constantly refute everything that the site stands for and try to back it up with imformation from so many books and web sites that you say you have read. Yes I am a student of the Bible and I have a lot of books in my study to help explain the belief of the Bible, but I do not have books just to prove the atheists wrong. Nowhere does the Bible tell me to argue and try to prove your beliefs and other religons to be wrong. I am just to preach and teach what is in the Bible, if you accept it then great but if you do not (and you have said you wouldn't) then that is just your own buisness. Forgive me but I have grown very tired of your comments you have not proven any thing to anybody on this site that would cause them to deny their belief in Jesus Christ. You have your belief or lack of any belief and we have ours. We have said we will be praying for you and that is our belief and choice and it doesn't cost you anything, we have been very courteous to you and you have not to us and that is evedient by you saying your posts have been deleted and you laughed about it, so I wish you the best in life that you desire but seriously this has gotten very old, you seem to want to look on the negative side and I do not wish to go there with you so please if we iritate you that bad why don't you find you another site and let the ones of us who want to discuss the scriptures and to help others if we can do so. I know many have said before that we do not need to encourage you to leave but you do not want to discuss the devotions you just want to constantly try to tear them down. For the believers I know this is a hard scripture but the Bible even says in Mat 7:6 "neither cast your pearls before swine". This is what we are doing when we constantly argue with those who adametly states they will never believe. We are only to give them the word, it is not our job to force our belief on them it is the job of the Holy Spirit to reveal it to their hearts. I know some will be dissapointed with me on this but we are doing nothing but falling into Satan's trap when we continue in the direction we are going, even I have shown some anger about some of the comments made about God, Jesus and the Bible. Lets admit it, yes we do need to discuss scriptures with unbelievers but not to the point of arguing like we have been doing. If I have offended any Brothers or Sisters forgive me please. - Jerry

Jerry, I have to admit that you are probably right. Even though I have at times felt like I am fighting for their very lives and souls there comes a time when you've told them the truth and it's up to them to absorb it or not. 2Tim 23-26 " Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth. and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will." Isn't it a marvel that for all life's circumstances that there is a scripture to coincide with it. That in itself should prove something. - Christ Follower

I'm afraid that we as Christians are going to have to get used to being persecuted. In 2nd Timothy 3 Paul describes the end of the world. In 2nd Tim 3:12 he says "In fact, "everyone" who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and imposters wil go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived." If you read on he tells us just to continue in what we've learned and that we know because it's from the holy scriptures which makes us wise through faith in Christ and that all scripture is God-breathed. In fact I just heard on Glenn Beck how a college art student's picture in Madison Wisconsin would not be allowed because it was a landscape picture with a cross on it with the words John 3:16 written on it. The teacher said he had given up his constitution rights by signing a school policy. The student said he hadn't realize what he signed so he tore up the paper and got 2 days suspension. There is a lawsuit against the school. The same teacher had allowed demonic artwork. So anyway fellow Christians buckle up because I'am afraid 2nd Tim 3 has begun and we will be persecuted and mocked as we have seen on this site recently. - Christ Follower

Jonathan,
You wouldn't like heaven anyway. That's where we worship God for all eternity. - Davo

A few fitting Proverbs:

18:2 "A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions."

20:3 "It is to a man's honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel."

22:10 "Drive out the mocker and out goes strife, quarrels and insults are ended."

Scripture is so full of life application. It is the Word. It is alive and will never pass away. I appreciate what you had to say, Jerry. I will trust Scripture to add to my knowledge daily. I do not appreciate hearing people say the Bible is worthless. I know otherwise and do not want to quarrel about it. The Bible speaks for itself for those who have ears to hear. - Janice

Christ Follower,
I do not claim to be "Holier than thou" but in the last 29 years I have learned that there are times when we have to concede to the fact that we are not going to win everyone to Christ. Some have mentioned the scripture about the narrow path leading to life and the wide gate leading to destruction (Mat 7:13-14), this is very true in the day in which we live. It seems that Satan has so much to offer people and they are blinded by his lies and they just cannot resist him. We as Gods children understand this because we read it in his word but the lost do not because Christians as a whole have fallen down on our jobs of telling them the truth. I know some do not agree with me that there is a time that we have to distant ourselves from conversations and discussions with people, about the Bible but when it is clear that we are not making any progress with people on interpretations or beliefs, whether we are right or wrong, we need to move on to other things and other people. Don't get me wrong, I know I am wrong a lot of times concerning scriptures, for argument sake we do not need to continue because we hurt the cause of Christ. I am concerned for people like Erik and Jonathon but I cannot make a decision for them. I have two brothers who have not professed a belief in Jesus as their saviour and this hurts me deeply, I have not given up on them but I do not argue with them everytime I see them either because it will only drive them further and further away. I pray for them just like I am praying for these who write in on this site who do not believe. But I for one do not believe we are to argue for days on in just to prove who knows more about the facts of the Bible being true or not. I appreciate you comments, they are very good and have given me a shot in the arm from time to time of strength to go on. Sometimes even Gods people get weary and needs some prodding to push on. Thank you for the help. - Jerry

Ok, this will be my last post. This time I promise. For those that think I'm "mocking Christianity", I'm not really. What I'm 'mocking', if you want to call it that, it a belief in supernatural beings that can not be explained by rational means and are contrary to the laws of nature and how we KNOW the universe to work. My beef is not with Christianity, but with all religions that rely on ancient texts that in today's world don't seem to hold a lot of relevance.

I only came here because a friend of my wife's is a Christian and she has this site up as a 'link' on her Facebook page! Being naturally baffled by religious beliefs, I clicked through and started reading the comments here. And after I read them, I couldn't help myself. Thus here we are today.

Heaven for all eternity. That sounds like a LONG time. A very long time. There is a calculus theroem regarding an expansion to infinity, and how it would render the "point" as non-existent. By that thereom, if heaven is for all enternity (out to infinity), then life here doesn't exist. You have to wonder what's the point of an infinitessimly small 70 years on Earth if you are going to spend an infinite years in heaven. Are you telling me that life here on Earth is no more than the entrance exam?

I'm not suggesting that something out there doesn't exist. Maybe something does. But I wouldn't define it in the Christian way (or jewish way or Muslim way). Science and man have yet to figure out what that is. Maybe we never will. But I certainly don't think an "intelligent" force was behind it all. If we need a god to kick-start the universe, then god needs a god to kick start himself. Introducing god just adds another level of complexity that is not helpful in explaining much, or anything.

Ask yourselves this - what is god? What's he made of? Matter like you and I? Energy? But energy is not a thinking living thing. Everything we've ever known in the universe is either matter or energy. Period. You think God's outside that? Neither matter nor energy? I would kind of like to know what you REALLY think he is (without bible quotes please). Why do you even call him "HE"? God is not male, for that is something characteristic of living things...something with sperm cells. I don't think God is a He, do you? Does that even make sense? THINK about it. Really think about it, and try to think about it not in the context of the bible for a while, but what you know, deep down, to be sensible and rational.

As I said, this is my last post. So I won't be responding to comments. Hopefully you've taken something away from what I've said, and once again, sorry for being offensive and argumentative.

JCO - Olberman

Jerry I appreciate your insightful and wise comments. You have been an inspiration to me and I totally understand what you are saying and I agree with what you say. And Jonathan as far as your last question I can only answer you from a biblical standpoint because that is where the beginning of our "faith" comes from. I mention faith because unfortunately for you that is a big part of the born again Christian religion. If you read the bible and look in the concordance faith is mentioned throughout. Eph.2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast. You obviously are intelligent, but consider there are many scientists who do believe. I gave out a website at one point that listed over 3,000 and where they work with their degrees. We consider our God a HIM figure because it is mentioned throughtout the bible and we look upon him as our father-remember the Lord's prayer that starts- Our Father who art in heaven. In our faith we trust a loving God that sent His Son to die for our sins. As Jerry as pointed out though this is all repetitive and after a while does become somewhat argumentative. So my point is in one way or the other we have answered all your questions, but you are the one that would have to in faith make the decision to accept Christ. We can't make you do it so since we have answered your questions all to the best of our ability hopefully one day you'll understand that there are just some things in this life that can't be totally understood. Good luck and God bless Jonathan and we will continue to pray for you although not doing as we've been doing just basically repeating ourselves to you to no avail. Again God bless. - Christ Follower

Jonathan or Olberman :-) I would like to leave one last comment to you if you are still reading this devotion. I think I can probably speak for most of us on this sight in that we're not scientists, but having said that I think I your own strange way you've have shown a bit of open mindedness in that you're even on this sight. Anyway I would ask that you please please google some sights that are scientific, but more from a Christian perspective. A while back a gentleman showed our bible study class a video that had actually been shown on television. I believe the discovery channel, but I really don't remember. It was a video about Darwin's theory. I also unfortunately don't remember the title. I did google and found a Christian sight that has videos on different scientific subjects including evolution-www.marianland.com/creatio/.html Anyway this sight and I would like for you to investagate everything yourself. It said that over 600 signatories had been collected from scientists from all over the world did not agree with Darwins theory including (I'am copying this) from Moscow State Univ, Masaryk Univ. In Czek Repuglic, Hong Kong University, Univ. of Turkur in Finland, Autonomous Univ. of Guadalajara in Mexico, Univ. of Stellenboschin S. Africa, Institut de Paleontologie Humaine in France, Chistose Ins. of Science and Tech. in Japan, Ben Gurion Univ. in Israel, MIT, The Smithsonian and Princeton. Advocates say it draws on recent discoveries in physics, biochemistry, and related diciplines that are best explained by Intelligent Design. Anyway I wish I remembered more about the video I saw. I just thought to myself well it's about time science is catching up with the bible. There was a lot about DNA and the atom and something about Darwinists couldn't explain several things about them. There was something about the atom being like a fulcrum. I hate to say it I was just not that into it because it went into a lot of mechanical things and as a female was tuning out a bit. I guess my point is please please for at least a little while step away from the atheists sights and just at least explore some Christian videos or sights that look at science from a different perspective. What can you lose? Please please please do this. We've explained our perspective from scripture and faith, now please check out some other sites besides just the atheist sites that might just explain some of the questions that we could not. We love you and wish you the best. Praying for you too! :-) - Becky

Olberman, I am talking about atheists - there is a big difference in an atheists and a participant in secularised society. There are more than 100 million Christians in the US alone. One of the largest groups of atheists, American Atheists, has only 2,500 members. Aheists are producting about half as many children as would be needed to replace their adult population while religious people are producting 2-3 times as many. "The religious population worldwide is growing fast while the secular number is shrinking" - according to Sociologists Pippa Norris and Ron Inglehart. And the fastest growing faith? Christianity. - Austin

Well, it kinda reminds me of a saying my daddy used to have-"You can't beat the devil at his own game." In this day of technology and websites and such no one will ever win with the my statistics are better than your statistics I'am afraid. - Beckys

Ok- let me just jump in here.
Austin- the fastest growing faith worldwide according to every survey is Islam. And yes, it's true that Christianity is strong in some countries but by and large it is the poorest and most ignorant countries that have the most Christians. The countries with high standards of living tend to be more secular.
In the US religiosity has been on the decline for many years. All denominations except Mormonism have seen either substantial declines or failure to grow. This is considered a crisis in many denominations.
As far as the American Atheists go, you are still seeing atheism as a faith or a church, like being Baptist or something, where you have to sign up and get a membership card. Most atheists and agnostics do not feel the need to belong to an organized group. If you want to call atheism/agnosticism a religion, then it is the religion that is growing fastest in the US. Persons who self-identify as Christian have decreased from 88% of us population in 1990 to 81% in 2001. At the same time atheist/agnostics have gone from 8% of the population to 15% in the same years.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States
- Erik

See what I mean. - Becky

Erik, you are simply factually wrong. The fastest growing faith is Christianity. Second is Islam. Christianity is experiencing growth through conversion - Islam is growing because of birth rates. BTW - wikipedia is not a source - it is a website where people can write whatever they want. Anyway - wether it is Christ vs. Muhammad, religion is growing like crazy. That demands a Darwinian explanation. Why are secularized areas (europe, russia, japan) decreasing in population at extremely alarming rates while religious areas of the world are growing? And don't say it has to do with money or education because Arab countries have plenty of both. - Austin

Becky, I'll respond to you only.

My belief, if you want to call it that, in atheism, is not from Googling atheist web sites. I don't spend any time on atheist web sites. My atheism has been arrived at from a logical and rational view of the world, that is in accordance with scientific thought and what we know to be true about the world.

Evolution is widely understood in the Christian community. Evolution, and science in general is not something you "believe" in...it is what it is, fact, proveable, measurable, and - most importantly - learnable. Some of you would do well to actually learn about science, instead of believing old myths.

Scientists who don't believe in evolution (again, you don't not believe in evolution any more than you don't believe in the theory of relativity), are probably also fundamentalist Christians who take the bible literally. I doubt very much they don't "believe" through the scientific method. This type of thinking is just more faith-driven, anti-Evolution nonsense. To accept "Creation-theory" in a biblical sense is to discard modern physics and the scientific methodology as a whole. The scientists that are also biblical-literalists are in the extreme minority and are not to be taken seriously. Intelligent Design is simply a "God-of-the-gaps" claim and offers nothing by way of an empirical alternative. This combination of ignorance of science and indoctrination of religious dogma continues to keep us from accepting the qualitatively provable and separating it from the theological. - Olberman

obviously I meant "Evolution is widely MISunderstood in the Christian community." above. - Olberman

Austin- I know what Wikipedia is. Since I can't cram the US census in my CD-rom and miracle it over to you, it's the easiest to view summary available, with links to the corresponding datasets. Check out reference #48 on the link I posted. The numbers I've given are in line with every study. Do you dispute them? Then what is your source?

As far as birth rates vs. conversion, I don't know of any solid data on that. You said yourself that atheists were dying out because of lower birthrates. If that is the case (and it's certainly possible, since persons of lower intelligence and socioeconomic standing tend to have more children) then it must mean that atheist/agnostics are winning many more converts than Christians.

If you have evidence that my numbers are wrong then I'd like to see it. Even the fundies admit to what I am saying, hence outreach efforts like RFTH, etc. - Erik

Olberman I guess I'll let this be my last message since I believe all this arguing is beginning to stress out others :-) As far as evolution is concerned I really don't think one necessarily makes the other incorrect. It's just since the video I spoke of was from a scientific standpoint that I thought you could maybe get a slightly different perspective since you yourself have said in the past that science itself is always evolving and learning new things. I wish I had paid more attention, but they did say that none of the Darwin supporters had ever been able to explain the new findings. So anyway sorry if I insulted you a bit about the aethist sights, but I really really do wish that you would at least look into the scientific evidence that the other researchers are talking about-that's all. Could you please at least consider that? Again as far as the evolution debate is concerned I really don't care. I feel like eventually all that will be reconciled with creationism and the evolution theory. I just think that if you looked into it a little farther you might find that there are some things that you aren't aware of.Well best wishes and believe it or not most of us do love you and only want you to find an abundant happy life with our Lord. Did you read what I had written in an earlier comment on this page about an aethist friend I had in high school? She too was extemely intelligent. I always expected her to be a scientist of some sort. She also loved science. I haven't seen her in years, but at the time of our reunion she was working in cancer research. In school she was often very angry and moody. When she did accept Christ she said it was like someone had turned her eyes around in her head and she was seeing the world through different eyes. At our class reunion she was voted most changed of anyone else in the class. Not only did her personality and outward life change, she had been known as a rather homely tomboy, but her whole countenance changed and she was beautiful inside and outside. It was truly an extraordinary sight to behold. I wish for this beautiful change for you also. Remember Paul also in the bible at one time hated Christians and even killed them. He had changed so much he felt the need to even change his name to Saul. Well good luck and please please consider looking at some of the scientific Christian info out there. What would you lose? If you think their ideas are silly it will just give you more ammunition to shoot at us :-) If it does make sense to you wouldn't you like to know? God bless and I'll be praying for you in all the different areas of your life. - Becky

Erik, I think it is funny that you think you are smarter than everyone else in the world simple because you are an American (founded by Christians). My stats are different than yours because the hard data that is available in surveys doesn't taken into account the hundreds of millions of new Christian converts in Atheistic countries like China, North Korea, etc. When you add in those estimates, Christianity is #1, by a tiny margin. The numbers are in no way firm, but they are the best we can get in countries where you will be killed for being a Christian. Either way, do you have a Darwinian explanation for this phenomena? Russia is losing 700,000 people a year. Europe is experiencing a population decrease that hasn't been seen since the Black Plague.

Olberman - how do you know what the Christian community misunderstands? You are not a part of the Christian community and have shown a lack of understanding of the most basic tenants of Christianity. Anyway - you and Erik both have an attitude of mental superiority. FYI - there are MDs,PhDs, MBAs, lawyers, and other very well educated people that read these devotionals. You two are likely not the most educated people here.

- Austin

I believe real evidence is better than guesses and wishful thinking. If this constitutes "an attitude of mental superiority" then I am guilty as charged. - Erik

All I know is our church is growing :-)))) - Becky

Erik, You have to admit Austin has made a valid point that accurate numbers are not available because in some countries the church is underground and believers who are found out will be jailed or killed. Therefore you would be unable to have firm evidence of your numbers. Is there no place in your world for mystery? There are some things that are only known by God. All the mumbers presented are based on how people would describe themselves to a survey taker. Only God knows the heart of people to know if they are telling the truth about what religion they adhere to. It would be nice if we could have firm evidence for the numbers so we could know for sure who is right and who is wrong in this argument but does it really matter? What really matters is what you do with God and Jesus since you have been made aware of the truth. Time will definitely tell who is right and who is wrong. We are still praying for you and Olberman. - Janice

Yept, our church is busting out the seams too. We've gone to 3 services and 5 on Easter. But then it's hard to tell for sure when you're not too smart and have to count with your fingers and toes. - Christ Follower

Janice- if you think all evidence is the same, or that evidence doesn't matter then there's nothing I can do to help you.

And yes, I do make room for the unknowable mysteries. Only I don't go on TV, radio, and the internets telling everybody they have to believe in whatever unprovable nonsense I might find appealing. I think Christian churches should be ashamed for lying to people this way. - Erik

Yes, time will tell. - Christ Follower

Erik, I do not believe all evidence is the same. Some is more accurate than other evidence. But considering the point of the discussion I do not believe the figures could be accurate given the circumstances of the survey which would be under duress in some cases. As for your opinion about the churches lying, well, that is your opinion. You are free to express it but we who read it are free to reject it when we know better. How can you say that you don't go on the internet telling people unprovable nonsense when that is what you do when you state the churches are lying? Some churches admittedly may not be getting out all the truth in the Bible because they are afraid of offending potential members but there are many churches which have pastors who preach the whole truth. The church is considered the bride of Christ and I believe He would not take to kindly to your insulting attitude. Time will tell. Anyway, the best I can do for you is to keep praying. May God speed deliverance. - Janice

Austin, how I know what the Christian community misunderstands, is by stupid attempts to simply, and put grossly in error evolutionary theory. Constant comments from Christians about wind blowing through a junkyard assembling a 747, tells me Christians do not understand, AT ALL, evolutionary theory. The fact that they say "I don't believe life evolved by CHANCE", tells me they do not understand evolutionary theory. The fact that Christians say thinks like "it's only a theory" tells me they know ZILTCH about evoluationary theory. The fact that Christians think evolutionary theory can even be equated or put up against Intelligent Design, when it trumps it a billion tims over, tells me they know jack squat about evolutionary theory. The fact that Christians think it's something to "believe in", tells me they know nadda thing about evolutionary theory.

Shall I go on? - Olberman

No, Olberman, please do NOT go on. Just go away, like you keep promising you will do. One thing we know for sure is you are not a man of your word. - ME

Look Olberman and Erick we do care or we would not have taken all the time to try to answer your questions, but it is time to stop all the back and forth. You've got to understand that none of us enjoy being basically told we're pretty much stupid, don't understand anything, and on top of that we're liars. So I for one will continue to pray for you as I did today while in church, praying that someday you can find the joy and happiness that we've found. Good luck and God bless. - Christ Follower

Sorry spelled your name wrong. - Christ Follower